Brothers, you said “Mariological” and my little Protestant heart was like, “- wait, what?” 😂
But in all seriousness, it was good to recognize that I was thinking strictly within my theological framework and not approaching the text with the broader historical/ecclesiastical context.
I will say that my thoughts jumped initially to Wisdom, in Proverbs, who was personified as a woman and I guess I kind of drew a connection between her and Lady Philosophy.
Not familiar with Neoplatonism, but it sounds so familiar to me, so much like what I grew up with in the church and I’m curious how you would differentiate between these ideals? I’m not even entirely sure what I’m asking to be honest. I guess I’m just assuming there has to be a difference. Jared said that the idea of putting love and the rational order together is distinctively Christian Neoplatonist move - is that the difference?
Ha! Yes, so I think you’re right about the personification of Wisdom from Prov 8 (I’m preaching on that tomorrow, actually ). In the history of the Church, this personification has been interpreted different ways. Many Church Fathers see Wisdom as Christ. There is a Marian reading of it too though. For example, when we have Marian feast days in the Church Kalendar, Proverbs 8 is frequently one of the readings.
I think the point is that Jesus *is* the Wisdom of God (which makes sense as the Word) in his divine nature. His human nature, in union with Wisdom, is fully . Similarly, the Mariological connection would see her as fully participating in Wisdom. If you think about it, he fiat (“Let it be done to me according to your will”) not only parallels Jesus’ Prayer in the Garden (“Not my will but yours”), but both prayers really express the posture Lady Philosophy is trying to get Boethius to embrace.
So Neoplatonism was a school of thought that tried to apply the thought of Plato from maybe the 3rd to 7th century after Christ. A good deal of Neoplatonists we’re anti-Christian (the Church Father Origen has a book titled Contra Celsum where he responded to many critiques of Christianity put forward by Celsus, a Neoplatonic philosopher).
Neoplatonism is characterized by its belief in a hierarchical cosmology, in which the highest reality is an eternal, transcendent, and indescribable "One," also known as the Good or the One Being and everything else “emanates” from it. Neoplatonists also believed in the existence of a World Soul, which mediates between the One and the material world. The ultimate goal of the individual soul, according to Neoplatonism, is to reunite with the One through philosophical contemplation and spiritual purification.
The main difference between Christianity and Neoplatonism is that Neoplatonism’s One can be very vague and lacks the personal quality of the Christian God. Further, the Neoplatonusts tended to have a lower view of material things than Christians do. Some early heretical Christian sects seemed to draw from Neoplatonism quite heavily: the Manichaeans, the Gnostics, and Marcion.
There are quite a few parallels between parts of Neoplatonism and Christianity. Augustine, for example, picked up on a lot of these and I’d considered the Church Father who “baptized Platonism.” I mentioned Hugh of Saint Victor in Endnotes of this episode, he was well-read in and influenced by Neoplatonism. So I think Christian Neoplatonism has had a good deal of influence on Christians throughout history, including us today! My thesis advisor, Dr. Hans Boersma does a lot of work on Christian Neoplatonism, in fact.
I haven’t quite finished reading Consolation of Philosophy yet. I was reading today where Boethius makes the point to Lady Philosophy that Fortune’s convenient statements about not belonging to anyone wholly and therefore he can’t rightfully be resentful fall on deaf ears and doesn’t hold up in the midst of suffering (I know Lady Philosophy pushes back on this as the book continues) -- but it really resonated with me and crazy to me how we can relate to human’s from any time and place.
I’m trying to finish it before I watch the video by you guys -- anxious to finish so I can watch!
Also interesting that Neoplatonism is a part of the conversation. I’ve been listening to John Vervaeke and he has a recent lecture on Neoplatonism and 4E Cog Sci that I found fascinating. I really love to see the parallels drawn between traditional Christianity and Neoplatonism. Coming from a Protestant background and listening to some of this stuff, things start to make a lot more sense.
Andrew, I didn’t end up reading this book due to a previous time commitment, but your reference to Boethius pushing back on not being able to be “rightfully resentful” intrigued me - you mentioned the relatability of that (right there with you) and I’m curious to know how the remainder of the book might have impacted the way you approach the issue or at least what new thoughts or questions it might have introduced?
Wesley, the article by Dr. Boersma that you shared in the Newsletter was perfect. It tied in with this whole conversation so well and I’m enjoying just mulling over it.
It’s been nearly 20 years since I was fit to “consult the Latin,” so Penguin it is!
Any thoughts on which translation I should pick up?
I thought the Penguin we used is good! I also have the Loeb so I could consult the Latin but I thought that translation was a tad outdated.
Brothers, you said “Mariological” and my little Protestant heart was like, “- wait, what?” 😂
But in all seriousness, it was good to recognize that I was thinking strictly within my theological framework and not approaching the text with the broader historical/ecclesiastical context.
I will say that my thoughts jumped initially to Wisdom, in Proverbs, who was personified as a woman and I guess I kind of drew a connection between her and Lady Philosophy.
Not familiar with Neoplatonism, but it sounds so familiar to me, so much like what I grew up with in the church and I’m curious how you would differentiate between these ideals? I’m not even entirely sure what I’m asking to be honest. I guess I’m just assuming there has to be a difference. Jared said that the idea of putting love and the rational order together is distinctively Christian Neoplatonist move - is that the difference?
Ha! Yes, so I think you’re right about the personification of Wisdom from Prov 8 (I’m preaching on that tomorrow, actually ). In the history of the Church, this personification has been interpreted different ways. Many Church Fathers see Wisdom as Christ. There is a Marian reading of it too though. For example, when we have Marian feast days in the Church Kalendar, Proverbs 8 is frequently one of the readings.
I think the point is that Jesus *is* the Wisdom of God (which makes sense as the Word) in his divine nature. His human nature, in union with Wisdom, is fully . Similarly, the Mariological connection would see her as fully participating in Wisdom. If you think about it, he fiat (“Let it be done to me according to your will”) not only parallels Jesus’ Prayer in the Garden (“Not my will but yours”), but both prayers really express the posture Lady Philosophy is trying to get Boethius to embrace.
So Neoplatonism was a school of thought that tried to apply the thought of Plato from maybe the 3rd to 7th century after Christ. A good deal of Neoplatonists we’re anti-Christian (the Church Father Origen has a book titled Contra Celsum where he responded to many critiques of Christianity put forward by Celsus, a Neoplatonic philosopher).
Neoplatonism is characterized by its belief in a hierarchical cosmology, in which the highest reality is an eternal, transcendent, and indescribable "One," also known as the Good or the One Being and everything else “emanates” from it. Neoplatonists also believed in the existence of a World Soul, which mediates between the One and the material world. The ultimate goal of the individual soul, according to Neoplatonism, is to reunite with the One through philosophical contemplation and spiritual purification.
The main difference between Christianity and Neoplatonism is that Neoplatonism’s One can be very vague and lacks the personal quality of the Christian God. Further, the Neoplatonusts tended to have a lower view of material things than Christians do. Some early heretical Christian sects seemed to draw from Neoplatonism quite heavily: the Manichaeans, the Gnostics, and Marcion.
There are quite a few parallels between parts of Neoplatonism and Christianity. Augustine, for example, picked up on a lot of these and I’d considered the Church Father who “baptized Platonism.” I mentioned Hugh of Saint Victor in Endnotes of this episode, he was well-read in and influenced by Neoplatonism. So I think Christian Neoplatonism has had a good deal of influence on Christians throughout history, including us today! My thesis advisor, Dr. Hans Boersma does a lot of work on Christian Neoplatonism, in fact.
I haven’t quite finished reading Consolation of Philosophy yet. I was reading today where Boethius makes the point to Lady Philosophy that Fortune’s convenient statements about not belonging to anyone wholly and therefore he can’t rightfully be resentful fall on deaf ears and doesn’t hold up in the midst of suffering (I know Lady Philosophy pushes back on this as the book continues) -- but it really resonated with me and crazy to me how we can relate to human’s from any time and place.
I’m trying to finish it before I watch the video by you guys -- anxious to finish so I can watch!
Also interesting that Neoplatonism is a part of the conversation. I’ve been listening to John Vervaeke and he has a recent lecture on Neoplatonism and 4E Cog Sci that I found fascinating. I really love to see the parallels drawn between traditional Christianity and Neoplatonism. Coming from a Protestant background and listening to some of this stuff, things start to make a lot more sense.
Andrew, I didn’t end up reading this book due to a previous time commitment, but your reference to Boethius pushing back on not being able to be “rightfully resentful” intrigued me - you mentioned the relatability of that (right there with you) and I’m curious to know how the remainder of the book might have impacted the way you approach the issue or at least what new thoughts or questions it might have introduced?
Wesley, the article by Dr. Boersma that you shared in the Newsletter was perfect. It tied in with this whole conversation so well and I’m enjoying just mulling over it.
Excellent! I thought it was appropriate and Dr. Boersma is awesome!